Bluey

I arrived back at work this week to hear news of a speed camera bluey headed my way. It is worth four demerit points and places me in a precarious position, re work.

The image above is the actual school zone I sailed through on July 21 doing 51 kmh. Two Catholic schools are covered by the zone - a primary school and a high school.

On that day, a Monday, Government schools had resumed from Term 2 holidays.

Also that day the Pope left Sydney after the World Youth Day celebrations and I was aware that due to the event Catholic schools had extended their holidays.

Thus there were no pupils or teachers at either school that day as they were still on holidays. Therefore I intend challenging the fine on a technicality of a non-school day.

What do you think - do I have a legitimate case ? Does anyone know how variations between Government and private school terms are treated by the RTA ? Can I rely on the posted signage indicating the speed zone only applies to 'SCHOOL DAYS' ? 

Comments

[Will]

At least that zone has the flashing lights in the sign.. (doesn't help you much in this case I suppose)
The first 2 of the 3 school zones I pass through each day don't, which means I'm supposed to keep track of the specific date, school terms, and check my watch as I'm approaching!
While I don't have an issue with slowing down for school zones, I think its a bit unreasonable to place the burden of this on drivers - especially when its the case of a technical non-school/pupil-free day, or there is no discernible activity at the school..

That said, I think you've got a legitimate case, if only for the amount of confusion and conflicting rules surrounding this particular zone. Are you also required to keep track of which schools are of particular denominations and work out whether or not they are in holidays?

[SurferCam]

Stick it to them Adrian!

Those signs should have flashing lights too like they all do in America. There's no confusion then.

[nyctaxiphoto]

sounds like you got a good case, but i'm on the other side of the world.

[AG Canberra]

Try it - they can only say no.

Here in the national capital our school speed signs fold over during the holidays - so there is no doubt when you have to do 40 and when you don't. The school has the keys and it is up to them to make sure the signs are visible or not.

[Ang]

Hi Adrian.

Just thought you would like to know that even though it is unfair, "School days are any days other than a Saturday or Sunday, a day that is a public holiday or a day publicly notified as a school holiday for government schools-see rule 318 (3-1)."

This comes straight from the Road Rules - http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_reg/rr2008104/s23.html

The worst thing is that this part of the rule only applies in NSW!

[garpal]

I'd give it a go mol. Good cabbies are hard to get especially in Sydney. It could be a case for Murphy or some other deserving barista. gg

[adrian]

Thanks to Ang for providing the relevant legislation, depressing as it is. Further reading indicates the definition of school days is based on government school dates, regardless of private school dates.

And even crueller, both the Dept of Educ. and Catholic Educ. Office list the same term dates for 2008...except for one day - July 21 !

[Thomas]

Hi Adrian
Just a note from the other side of the world.
In England we have speed cameras all over the place now and they take no prisoners.
It has widely been publicised over here that most of our cameras do not have the relevant traffic orders to operate as enforcement cameras. We have a wedsite that we use to help us oppose our tickets, its called http://www.ticketfighter.co.uk/home.htm
I know that this only applies to our laws but you may get some sort of idea from it.
I reckon that you have got a great chance of getting off, if the schools were out. You should always challenge a ticket no matter how feeble an excuse you have. Quite a few challenges get off over here about 30%, but then our traffic authorities are crap anyway.
Have a nice day mate.

[MikeFitz]

G'day Adrian,

I reckon it's worth a try. The main question is "What are the odds of copping an unreasonable magistrate?"

Clearly your driving was not placing any children at risk. The fact that there were no children around and the schools were actually shut would lead any reasonable person to believe that it was not "a school day".

The down-side of course is the possibility of extra costs if the decision goes against you.

I recently helped #3 son successfully defend himself against two traffic police, a main roads engineer and a red-light charge. It was hard work and took all day. The police prosecutor just wouldn't give up. Fortunately his 17-yr-old witnesses weren't spooked and the magistrate was reasonable.

If it had gone badly, I estimated the costs would have been about $3000 to $5000. In the end, all I lost was a day of my time and a lot of perspiration.

Good luck; I hope it goes well. Too much at stake *NOT* to have a go. Besides, if you don't win, do you have any mates in current affairs TV? .. that might fund an appeal? :)

[steve at the pub]

I'm for giving it a try.

"definition" of a school day be blowed, it was NOT a school day, and the fact tht it was NOT a school day was widely publicised by the RC church.

[nickonjjg]

Court action is your LAST RESORT.If you think logically and follow my instructions you should be able to delay that for at least 18 months to 2 years.
Firstly, ignore the first Penalty Notice and wait for the reminder notice.
l day before the Due Date of the reminder notice, ring the Infringement Processing Bureau and request a verbal 14 days extra to pay stating that you have JUST received the reminder notice in poor condition under your letterbox on the ground, this extention should be granted. I day before THAT date have your letter to the IFP ready. Much,much more Later....

[nickonjjg]

This will be your first of MANY letters/email to the Infringemnt Processing Bureau at properly spaced and timed reply by them/send by you cycled intervals. All of which they will respond to.There is also a freecall 1 800 number to phone them. More later on this, you wont need this for a few months.
You will need to send numerous letters to your local member of Parliment at properly timed/ spaced intervals , the ombudsman and the premier of NSW all at properly timed and spaced reply/respond intervals all legal and FREE to you .Numerous other legal and FREE to you strategies are available, assuming they just might withdraw the infringement based on what you should put on your first letter to The IPB in a few months.In either case it should cost them many months and thousands of dollars to respond to your requests , all this BEFORE you even need to make a court election, And then the really involved tactics start.

[nickonjjg]

All these strategies and future strategies require you to think "laterally".If you feel uncomfortable with "finding" the reminder notice under your letterbox, any reason to grant an extension that will work is enough, including personal illness etc, just "suss" out the public servant on the phone.

[Darloboy]

Adrian,There is a guy,you all probalyseen him on TV,he isa casual Parking Officer,I forget his name,he has his own website,Arthur ..........Somebody,he has won all his parking fines that he got at the airport.
He used to work at Botany Council.he has written a book on howto beat fines.He was on A Current Affair a few weeks ago.I used his advice about 5 years ago and I got out of the parking matter.Anybody know his website so Adrian can email him?
Let me tell you this,you have to attend court Adrian to plead NOT GUILTY then they will set a date for hearing AND even if you get out of it,you STILL pay the court costs,I think they are about $61.00 now,correct me if Im wrong.

[adrian]

Thanks Nick for the tips though I'd prefer to deal with this sooner rather than later. Just depends on my driving record which I'm waiting for a copy.

In my experience there is flexibility in the system and I'm confident that a carefully presented valid explanation in the preliminary stage can obviate the need for court action. However I appreciate alternative suggestions if this approach fails.

[KingofNewYorkHacks]

you got the pope on your side, no worries mate. the king always knows....but ummmm good luck anyway.

[Caroline]

"I'm confident that a carefully presented valid explanation in the preliminary stage can obviate the need for court action."

Whilst also I trust, remaining mindful that there is no justice--especially in the court system. Where there are fines, sentences, compromises adjournments and occasionally you can hope to get chucked out of court completely. Your approach sounds altogether too rational, too honest and too sane. Ipso facto, in the NSW Judicial system--bound to come a gutsa.

Nickon's advice undoubtedly would work, but shit eh, how demoralising, for all concerned, to have to go through such complete crap and waste so much (of anybody's) time & money.

Don't let me put you off though,(heh). I never know when the bloody school holidays are either, a thing I suspect, one needs to be a working family to be privvy too. All the same give 'em hell. (or something), you could try being sane, rational and honest but steel yourself for such a novel approach to fall flat or worse.

[adrian]

On the money, Caroline, but I reckon if one has a reasonable explanation there's always a chance of winning with a carefully worded appeal...accompanied by supporting evidence...and the requisite grovelling...plus the luck of the Irish. Worked last time.

[nickonjjg]

Adrian, You can RUSH to find out what happens, but if you lose you have rushed into losing your licence. My approach gives you TIME to consider the alternatives. If everyone did what I suggest then "Revenue Raising" fines such as yours would become "Revenue Costing" and the authorities would HAVE to re consider such fines as every fine would cost them thousands of dollars even before Court to raise. Maybe you can consider it "keeping the bastards honest".It is "demoralising" to let the authorities push you around and "dictate" what is fair and what is not. You Legally have these free avenues of appeal before court action why not use them? Why "RUSH" the authorities into taking your licence off you, you are giving them a free ride to push you and others around and fine you for whatever they want by "playing" into their hands.
Any solicitor of value would advise you to use all "free" avenues possible before rushing it with the courts.

[Anthony]

I got off a Victorian speed camera fine by asking nicely and pointing to my driving record and the fact I would be unlikely to visit that part of Victoria ever again. That said, I don't think the NSW police are as flexible with fines coming from sign-posted camera locations and especially in school zones.

Write a letter stating it was your genuine belief it was not a school day, and if no luck, take it to court. You can only hope for a reasonable magistrate.

[Taxi Trainer]

Poor defence in my opinion. If in doubt, stick to the law. Don't break it, then try to find an excuse. Gold star for effort though!

[freebird]

I got a speeding ticket 115 in 100 zone at age 60, lifetime clean licence, wrote for leniency - their reply "speeding is a life threatening offence and there is no leniency shown ever" - Queensland